To believe that the two pictures above are depicting two different rifles is ridiculous. It's more nit-picking by conspiracy mongers who want Oswald to be innocent. Simple as that. The angle of the two pictures plays a part in the 'different'-looking 'C' on the rifle. And the lighting too. For one thing, in the 'WC' photo, the serial number looks silvery (I would guess this is from the camera's flash), while the C2766 number is dark in the 'Life' photo.
But the key (IMO) in proving that the two pictures are depicting the exact same rifle (in addition to the common-sense reason to know that the two pics are showing the same weapon, since there are most certainly NOT two Carcano rifles in existence with the exact same five- digit serial number, including the prefix) is the positioning of the two 'sixes' in the serial number in both photographs. The two 'sixes' are positioned exactly the same in both pictures, being located further apart from one another than are the first three numbers ('276'). And the second '6' is situated HIGHER than the other numbers in BOTH pictures.
Do conspiracy theorists think that there were TWO different MC 91/38 rifles with the numbers '2766' stamped on them that were stamped on these guns in just exactly the same way, with the second '6' being placed slightly higher on the gun than the other numbers? And if so, then this would have probably been done at DIFFERENT manufacturing plants, since even CTers who believe in the silly nonsense about there being two Carcanos with the same C2766 number on them also believe that if this almost-impossible occurrence did happen, it likely would have been a case where one of the weapons was made at the Terni plant (that was Oswald's, of course), while the other (never-seen) rifle would have been made at a different Carcano manufacturing plant altogether. GIL JESUS SAID: 'Compare the complete serial numbers side-by-side and tell me how the 'angle' and 'lighting' can effect ONLY the bottom serif of the first character and no other part of the serial number.' On Sep 20, 5:14 pm, David Von Pein wrote:. You claim that differences of 'the angle' and lighting account for the differences in the appearances of the first character of the serial numbers. If true then differing angles and lighting would similarly effect other features of the serial numbers. So why have you failed to point out these similar effects?
Frankly, David, your focus upon the similar placements of the last two digits of the serial numbers leaves the reader with the impression that you really do not believe that differences of 'the angle' and lighting account for the differences in the appearances of the first character of the serial numbers. Perhaps you care to try agin and confront the dissimilarities. The upper graphic shows the WC photograph of 1963 of the serial number whose characters are more reflective that their immediate surroundings. This situation is opposite of what we see on the Life photograph of 1983 where the characters are less reflective then their immediate surroundings. The first digits of the serial numbers show differences. In particular the WC photograph shows a two with a curved base while the two on the Life photograph has a flat base. Certainly no differences in 'the angle' can transform a curve to a flat or a flat to a curve.
In reality, Mr. Von Pein, you have not explained the differences in the appearances of the serial numbers. Herbert Anthony Marsh 21/9/2009, 18:08 น. David Von Pein wrote: To believe that the two pictures above are depicting two different rifles is ridiculous. It's more nit-picking by conspiracy mongers who want Oswald to be innocent.
Simple as that. The angle of the two pictures plays a part in the 'different'-looking 'C' on the rifle. And the lighting too. For one thing, in the 'WC' photo, the serial number looks silvery (I would guess this is from the camera's flash), while the C2766 number is dark in the 'Life' photo. But the key (IMO) in proving that the two pictures are depicting the exact same rifle (in addition to the common-sense reason to know that the two pics are showing the same weapon, since there are most certainly NOT two Carcano rifles in existence with the exact same five- digit serial number, including the prefix) is the positioning of the two 'sixes' in the serial number in both photographs. And you were doing so well up until your parenthetical observation.
While you may be correct that there are no two Carcanos still in existence with the serial number C2766, there may be two Carcanos with the same serial number. What you mean is that there are no two short rifle Mannlicher-Carcano model 91/38s made at the Terni factory that were GIVEN the same serial number. But this loophole is big enough to drive a truck through for some kooky conspiracy believers. They could claim that Oswald ordered the Carbine C2766, but someone else used the short rifle C2766. Or someone could claim that there used to be a 2766 without a prefix and someone added a C to match Oswald's rifle. Or someone altered an existing letter or number to duplicate Oswald's number.
So it could have originally been G2766 which was altered to C2766. Sec s5pc210 test b/d driver. I can't remember all the numbers of the M-Cs from the records, but I believe that almost all had 4 digit numbers, with or without a one-letter or two-letter prefix. Mine is also a Terni Carcano short rifle with a 4 digit number with the H prefix. You may want to check the list of some known Carcanos on the Carcano Home Page, a great resource for FACTS. The two 'sixes' are positioned exactly the same in both picturesbeing located further apart from one another than are the first three numbers ('276'). And the second '6' is situated HIGHER than the other numbers in BOTH pictures.
Do conspiracy theorists think that there were TWO different MC 91/38 rifles with the numbers '2766' stamped on them that were stamped on these guns in just exactly the same way, with the second '6' being placed slightly higher on the gun than the other numbers? Well, gee I can imagine one conspiracy theorist who would claim that they started out with a C276 rifle and matched the last 6 being higher. And if so, then this would have probably been done at DIFFERENT manufacturing plants, since even CTers who believe in the silly nonsense about there being two Carcanos with the same C2766 number on them also believe that if this almost-impossible occurrence did happen, it likely would have been a case where one of the weapons was made at the Terni plant (that was Oswald's, of course), while the other (never-seen) rifle would have been made at a different Carcano manufacturing plant altogether.
Well, if they are going to fake everything, why couldn't they also fake the Terni stamp? Betcha didn't thinka that, didya? Anyway the HSCA analysis of the wear marks shows that it's the same rifle all the time.
So if there is a M-C carbine C2766 buried in the sands of Ethiopia it has no bearing on the JFK assassination. The problem I have with Oswald's rifle is that the markings do not seem right. A lot of those markings were supposed to be removed before shipping them to the US, such as the Fascist date. And why are all the imported Carcanos supposed to be marked 'MADE IN ITALY' as per the contract and yet Oswald's rifle is stamped 'MADE ITALY'? Is his the only Crescent Arms import which was stamped incorrectly?
GIL JESUS SAID: 'Compare the complete serial numbers side-by-side and tell me how the 'angle' and 'lighting' can effect ONLY the bottom serif of the first character and no other part of the serial number.' DVP THEN SAID: Beats me. But that very thing obviously did happen in this instancebecause those two pictures are depicting the EXACT SAME GUN. Michael jackson greatest hits download torrent. Only hardcore conspiracists believe otherwise. BTW, my 'C2766' challenge from March of this year has never been accepted by any conspiracy theorist (to date). My challenge was this (yes, Gil, I'm going to quote myself again, so there's no need to dash to your keyboard to berate me for it this time): 'Here's a challenge for all conspiracy-happy kooks - Come up with ANY RIFLE (or ANY MANUFACTURED ITEM, PERIOD, whether it be a rifle or a handgun or a toaster or a refrigerator or a DVD player or a hair dryer) that has the exact same serial number stamped on it as Lee Harvey Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle - i.e., the serial number 'C2766'. I'd wager that nobody on this planet can come up with a single product of ANY KIND (a Carcano rifle or otherwise) that is stamped with that exact serial number.
DVP; March 19, 2009.
Carcano Database - Carcano M91/38 Carcano Database - Carcano M91/38 Last updated: Tue 23 Jan 2001 12:55:00 GMT If you wish to add information to the database,. If you a question(s) regarding identifying your Carcano, you can. If you have a comment regarding the database, or have made an error entering data, please. Model Caliber Serial Number Manufacturer Year Rebuild Special Features Stamps Comments Primary Use Condition Location Model Variant Sporterized Gun Stock Bolt A.D. Fascist Sights Sling Swivels Bolt Other Rifle Stock Bolt 91/38 Fucile Corto 6.5x52 Carcano B3071 B3071 RE Terni 1940 XVIII Fixed Side Bent Fascist Year Markings 39 under receiver; MADE IN ITALY CAL.
6.5 on top of receiver; CAL. 6.5 on rear sight. Round faded stamp on left side of buttstock Lightly sanded stock, varnished.
Most exposed metal parts have been painted black, blueing underneath seems very good. Possibly done by the exporter or importer. Practice Shooting/Plinking Very Good New Jersey USA 91/38 Fucile Corto 6.5x52 Carcano C2766 Unknown Terni 1940 Fixed Scope Mount Side Bent Unknown Unknown The most famous Carcano of them all, this is the gun Lee Harvey Oswald supposedly used to assassinate President John F.Kennedy.
The black stock signifies that this may be a Moschettieri del Duce variant.
Carcano Model Identification Carcano Model Identification Nomenclature The model nomenclature and identification of the various Carcano rifles and carbines varies wildly and confusingly in both Italian and foreign literature. While it may be preferable, in the long run, to stay with the 'official' Italian army nomenclature, it is not always clear itself and often too ambiguous. Richard Hobbs uses the following approach: Following Italian parlance, he distinguishes (only) two basic models for the Carcano, designated by the years in which the model was introduced: Modello 91 (M91) in 1891 and the Modello 38 (M38) in 1938. The crucial distinction between both models is the intended caliber for which the gun was chambered: 6,5x52 Carcano for the M91 and 7,35x51 Carcano for the M38. As a result, those apparent Model 38 guns which - after 1940 - were again chambered for the older 6,5mm caliber are also called M91/38.
The model number is followed by the year in which a significant variant was introduced (hereafter refered to as the sub-model), if applicable. For example, the M91/24 appeared first in 1924, being a conversion of M91 Fucile to Moschetto T.S.
The M91/24 is sufficiently different from the preceding M91 Moschetto T.S. To warrant a separate designation. The model designation should be followed by the phenotype, when not redundant: Fucile, Moschetto Cavalleria (Cav.), Moschetto Truppe Speciali (T.S.) and Fucile Corto. Cases where the phenotype is redundant is the M91/24 Moschetto T.S., M91/28 Moschetto T.S. And M91/41 Fucile.
This approach is a fairly compact method, but imprecise if the model specifications and naming conventions are not fully understood and internalized. Alexander Eichener, on the other hand, while recognizing the formal correctness of a mere model distinction, prefers another descriptive approach for clarity and easiness of identification. He maintains that Carcani should best be identified:. first by their phenotype, that is either long rifle, short rifle, cavalry carbine, or special troops' carbine.
second by their model/sub-model number, e.g. M91, M91/41 (the two long rifles), M91 TS, M91/24 TS, M91/38 TS (all these are full-stocked special troops' carbines). third by their caliber, id est 6,5 mm or 7,35 mm. While an argument could be brought forth that it be sufficient to use the model number alone to also identify the caliber, this is very obscure even for the specialist, much more so for the non-initiated everyday reader. Here is an example: stating 'I have a Carcano Moschetto TS Mod. 38 in 7,35 mms for sale' is a lot for clearer than just calling it a ' Carcano Model 38' and letting the reader wonder what it might turn out to be in the end (a short rifle?
A cavalry carbine? A special troops' carbine?). An interesting other 'Carcano' model, in the wider sense, is the, which was produced 1938/39 on foreign contract for use by the Japanese as part of Axis mutual aid pacts, and which is chambered for the 6,5x50 R Japanese. Unlike the other Carcani, which have a 6 round charger-clip magazine, the, has a 5 round box magazine (for stripper clips). Stocks and sights also differ from the Italian type in that they closely resemble the Japanese Type 38 Arisaka long rifle from 1905.
Sub-Models In addition to the basic models, there are sub-models identified by the year when revisions to the basic model were introduced. For example, the M91/24 T.S. Is a rework begun in 1924, converting the M91 Fucile to T.S. The M91/28 (special troops' carbine) and M91/41 (long ifle) are sub-models were introduced in 1928 and 1941, respectively. A slight exception to this rule is the - already mentioned - M91/38 which was actually introduced in 1940.
The M91/38 derived it nomenclature from it being a M38 chambered in 6,5x52 Carcano, instead of the originally intended 7,35x51 Carcano. M91/38's are often also referred to as 'M38 in 6,5x52 Carcano'. Incidentally, there is no evidence to support the often-read and repeated rumour that any M38's were converted from 7,35x51 Carcano to 6,5x52 Carcano (by changing the barrel), according to Hobbs. But a number of M 38 guns in 7,35 mms were made using older 6,5 mms barrels and receivers, the markings of which may still be found partially visible e.g. On the barrel base. Regardless of the formal distinction which we undertook above, it is common to find the sub-models being referred to as models (i.e. M91/28 as M28; M91/41 as M41).
Just keep this in mind when interpreting a reference. Variants or Types From these basic nominal 'models', several discernible variants existed: the Fucile, Fucile Corto, Moschetto Cavalleria (Cav.) and the Moschetto Truppe Speciali (T.S.). These are the denominations most helpful for you, and which Alexander Eichener had also called 'phenotypes' because they are immediately recognizable at sight.
Terni Rifle Serial Number I2605
Fucile (Long rifle): Two long rifles exist, namely the M91 and the M91/41 (the preceding M 91/40 was a long trial rifle which was never distributed at large). They are distinguished in the following ways: - Length - Rear sight blades: M 91 graduated from 600 metres to 2000 metres, M 91/41 from 300 metres to 1000 metres - Sling bars and swivels: only at the bottom for the M91, whereas the M91/41 also has side bars.
A few M 91/41 may have their bottom swivels milled off after production. Buttplate: the M91/41 buttplate is slightly flatter and curves around the upper side of the buttstock, so the upper screw enters from above, vertically. Fucile corto (Short rifle): They exist in 7,35 mms (Mod. 1938 or 38) and in 6,5 mms (Mod. Identical except for caliber and sight zeroing distance (7,35 mms at 300 metres, 6,5 mms at 200 metres). Only the very first M1938 short rifles initially had a different handguard and nosecap and no second barrel band (and these are not 'prototypes', as Richard Hobbs incorrectly named them, but regular production). Upon negative reports from the troops, these features were changed, and the old style rifles were almost all retroconverted to the later (common) standard, by exchanging the handguard and nosecap and re-milling the stock's front end to accomodate the new nosecap.
The Short Rifle is often confused with the Moschetto TS. See the explanation later on this page for a listing of the differences. Moschetto TS A short carbine, stocked almost to the muzzle, with a bayonet lug and a handguard. Comes as M91 (in various modifications), M91/24, M91/28, M38, M38 S (in 7.9/7.92/8mm Mauser) and M91/38. Moschetto per Cavalleria A half-stocked cavalry carbine, with the unmistakable triangular folding bayonet; it is fixed to a permanent muzzle mounting, but hinges back under the stock, into a slot there. Not infrequently the bayonet is missing.
Exists as M91, M38, M 38 S, M91/38. One manufacturer, FNA Brescia, continued its previous M91 pattern throughout the Second World War and never made a M91/38 with fixed sights. Please note that the round barrel base (instead of the old half-octagonal configuration with five facets on the upper side and a round base) was already introduced way before 1938 for the last M91 carbines and is not a sign for a M91/38 model in and by itself. How to distinguish a Short Rifle and a Moschetto TS:. The Short Rifle has a gripping groove milled into each side of the wooden forearm; the Moschetto TS not.
The Short Rifle has a buttplate with a small (hard-to-pry-open) trapdoor for its three-piece cleaning rod; the Moschetto TS has its rod right under the barrel, screwed into a channel like the Fucile 91. The Short Rifle is xxx cms (40 inches) long, the Moschetto TS only xx cms (36 inches).
How to distinguish the manifold Moschetto TS sub-variants: Have you ever taken a broom and begon to sweep the forest?.Sigh. The Moschetto TS underwent constant minor modifications and alterations like no other Carcano, and I find it very difficult to gain an overview. Collectors hould keep in mind that these were all undertaken man mano, that is, successively as soon as a gun would have to be repaired and came back to the arsenal. Many different stages and variants thus co-existed at the same time and to speak of 'introduction times' would mislead the reader. The changes mainly involve the following parts:. bayonet lug on original nose cap altered from transversal TS shape to usual straight fucile shape.
Winchester Rifle Serial Numbers
handguard retainer hook added to nosecap; handguard accordingly loses its retaining inner front metal lip, like the fucile's handguard did earlier. additional side sling swivel mounted into the forearm. long curved nose cap exchanged to short fucile style. second barrel band added (fucile style). side sling swivel added onto the fucile style barrel band. There are other Carcano variants, but these tend to be extremely rare or conversions of other types.
For example, there are the Guardie del Re (King's Guard) and Moschettieri del Duce (Mussolini's Guard) variants, both of which are rare, and are distinguished by the coloring (gilded ornamentation and black stock, respectively), and non-standard stock/bayonet treatments. One conversion is the Tromboni Launchi Bombe (aka Troboncino Launcia Bombe), the Grenade Launcher variants of the M91/28 T.S., M38 T.S. The Tromboni Launchi Bombe is permanently attached to the right side of the gun. Guns with the Tromboni removed should have a small notch cut on the top of the chamber end of the barrel and the right side of the stock inletted.
1943 saw the introduction of a German style grenade launcher that fit underneath the barrel of the M91, M91/41 and T.S.' There are also late war official German 8x57 IS conversions, undertaken as an emergency measure for the Volkssturm in both magazine and single-shot configurations (Heinrich Krieghoff branch factory in Tyrol). These are very rare, and must not be confused by the much more commonly offered following variant: Some Moschetti TS M38 were chambered for the 7,92x57 Mauser (aka 7,9x57 Mauser; 8 x 57 IS; 8mm Mauser). We call them 'M38 S' here, because they usually bear a large 'S' mark on the receiver, and often also on the bolt handle; their receiver breech end has a half-moon cut to accomodate for the longer 8 x 57 IS cartridges (just as with the Norvegian Kar 98k converted to.30-06, and the Turkish M 1903/38 conversions).
Terni Rifle Serial Number Lookup
Richard Hobbs thinks, based on an oblique and unclear remark in Italian army supply documents, that these guns were intended for Italian troops operating on the Russian front, and he thus calls this sub-model the Moschetto M38 TS Russi (Russian); but this appears to be a naming after the fact (unless further Italian sources be discovered). Others disagree, based e.g. On the argument that the term 'Fucili Russi 8mm' could as well and even more literally refer to two not uncommon RUSSIAN World War I bounty weapons: to the Austrian-captured Mosin-Nagants converted to 8 x 50 R Steyr and to the German-captured Mosin-Nagants converted to 8 x 57 IS. Besides, the Italian armed forces had enormous stocks of original Austrian M1895 rifles and carbines, and also used them in WW II.
These critics identify those Moschetti either as post-war conversions done for Egypt, some of which were captured by Israel, or as direct war aid deliveries to Israel. The most likely conclusion is therefore that at least two, maybe three different Carcano types in 8x57 IS exist; their history still remains somewhat unclear until now.